The Gaming Den

FrankTrollman wrote:

Lokathor wrote: Also, you forgot to add Heroin. sadface.

Heroin is a derivative of Opium. There isn't a separate entry from crack (cocaine) or everclear (alcohol) either.

-Username17

This I did not know.

FrankTrollman, July 11 wrote:

Me wrote:Finally, Call the Lamprey needs to be clarified. It looks like it deals damage BOXES equal to the net hits rather than POSIT damage, is that correct?

Yeah, Call the Lamprey needs to be rewritten.

As-written it's actually clear what the spell does, just counter-intuitive because it's the only effect that does damage by the box. I'm actually fine with leaving it as-is since it's not really meant? to be a dangerous attack, but wanted ot remind you of your stated intention.

Orion wrote:

FrankTrollman, July 11 wrote:

Me wrote:Finally, Call the Lamprey needs to be clarified. It looks like it deals damage BOXES equal to the net hits rather than POSIT damage, is that correct?

Yeah, Call the Lamprey needs to be rewritten.

As-written it's actually clear what the spell does, just counter-intuitive because it's the only effect that does damage by the box. I'm actually fine with leaving it as-is since it's not really meant? to be a dangerous attack, but wanted ot remind you of your stated intention.

Yeah, the original power writeup was unclear, which is why it got a rewrite when you called my attention to it. It was written before the damage system was finalized, and ended up being incoherent. The rewrite looks like it's fairly explicit. Also incredibly powerful for anyone on a Ritual/Lunar power schedule.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:

Say, it'd be alright if anyone posted demonstrable examples of creating player characters?

I could do that. Several of the NPCs in Persona non Grata are playable. But a sample walk-through seems reasonable.

-Username17

Great, thanks.

Do you also any good ideas for an introductory adventure? Wiping out a zombie horde sounds like good, clean fun.

OK, added a walk-through on making a character in Points of View.

I'll work on a sample adventure, that seems like a pretty good idea.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:OK, added a walk-through on making a character in Points of View.

I'll work on a sample adventure, that seems like a pretty good idea.

-Username17

Good work, Frank. Would it be okay if you posted a character sheet for her as well?

Also, do you have any ideas for inspirational music for the AWoD? IMHO, I'd go with some Heavy Metal for any fierce combat. Nothing like rocking out to Judas Priest or Motorhead when you're tearing apart hordes of monstrous minions.

Frank, perhaps you should edit a link to the current write-up into the top of your first post. Just so that people who look here instead of 'my own invention' don't go away confused and disappointed.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Frank, perhaps you should edit a link to the current write-up into the top of your first post. Just so that people who look here instead of 'my own invention' don't go away confused and disappointed.

That's a great idea. Done.

-Username17

This thread has gotten very long, and I and Lokathor have started having to reiterate questions or complaints to make sure they're not forgotten. I'm going to create a post in IMOI called "aWoD Buglist" where I will try to keep an up-to-date index of feature requests, requests for clarification, etc. I will also try to add an FAQ section for some things Frank has explained but not put in the text.

I will try to go over the last few pages of this thread for bugs, and will keep an eye on it going forward, but please feel free to PM me anything you want to make sure goes on it.

EDIT: Bug List

I have two comments on the character creation example: first, that I think a minor change in the presentation of the skill assignments would make it more intuitive, and second, that the entire structure is misguided and needs to be scrapped.

First: my players have, without exception, looked at me blankly when I asked them to prioritize skill groups, and to a large degree done the same with stats. To be honest, I don't blame them, because to a novice it is *not at all* obvious what your priorities actually are.

You might think you should place your priority on the field that includes "your thing" -- a "combat" character should get prioritize physical, a hacker or doctor should get technical, etc. That's not really true though. An In Media Res character gets enough points to put up respectable numbers in 3 of the 7 skills from the "low priority" set. Low Technical priority buys (Electronics 6, Research 4, Operation 4) for a hacker. Low Physical Priority buys (Combat 6 Athletics 3 Stealth 3 Larceny 2) for a Ninja. Therefore, rather than the language of "high/middle/low priority" I recommend "broad/average/narrow experience".

But even more than the language change, I recommend a procedure change. Here's how I've told my players to do it:

1: Assign 14 points to each skill group.
2: Assign 5 more points to 2 skill groups
3: Assign 5 more points to one of those groups
4: Assign 6 points anywhere

That way they can actually see where they need their points, and they get less decision paralysis as they're never asked to dispose of 20+ points in one step. I do the same for stats of course

----

As for the bigger problem with your write-up, it's that disciplines come before stats/skills, because you don't know what you need until you've picked them. The order of steps is:

1: pick monster type, or cult which GM has indicated will be relevant
2: look at cults that make sense for your monster, or ask GM what monster makes most sense for your cult.
3: look at the advanced sorceries for your cult. You character learned 2 disciplines since transforming, and if you see and advanced you like, those 2 are out of the way.
4: write down on scrap paper the stats used for your innate and cult disciplines, and skills which crop up frequently.
5: look at a bunch of devotions, and then advanced disciplines, to pick your character's "signature power". then, if you have any basics left, assign them.
6: assign stats and skills

I can't figure out what you changed when it comes to damage and wounds (re: our spray/pray discussion).

I'm also curious what you felt was insufficiently lethal. I haven't noticed a problem in my games on either side of the table, but especially from the PCs. Our Bagheera, for instance,already tends to OHKO Akumas (not one-initiative pass, literally one attack) so I'm leery of anything that would improve PC damage.

Orion wrote:But even more than the language change, I recommend a procedure change. Here's how I've told my players to do it:

1: Assign 14 points to each skill group.
2: Assign 5 more points to 2 skill groups
3: Assign 5 more points to one of those groups
4: Assign 6 points anywhere

I like it. A lot. But do you think it would go over well with all players?

I mean, it's more steps of addition. And White Wolf players have been successfully assigning priorities to Mental, Physical, and Social skills then buying dots for 18 years.

-Username17

How many dots did they get to assign in the first place, though? In the Vampire video game, the total number of dots per category was like 5 or so. I *think* most people would rather assign 5, then 5, then 5, then 15 at once. Also, my perception of white wolf games was that you were so skill-starved that you would know how to prioritize just based on the one or two skills you needed.

In aWoD you get so many points in your highest priority group that spending them all is legitimately difficult. Almost any character concept can get all the skill he logically needs from "mid priority," while "high priority" ends up, in my experience, going to the group where you have obscure sorceries, not the group most thematically connected to your character.

Edit: In my mind, when asked to "prioritize" I'm gonna look at the marquee skills in each group: combat, athletics, empathy, persuasion, research, medicine, and ask: which of these "awesome" skills is most important to my character? But that's the entirely wrongway to do it, because everybody can afford those skills. With low priority+1 you get 3 5s; with mid+1 you get 4 5s. Most characters are actually fine with 4 of the 7 skills in their favored category.

Physical:

The most "universally" useful are combat, perception, stealth, athletics, and larceny. You probably have magic that makes either stealth, combat, or athletics unnecessary. So the only reason to "prioritize" physical would be to supplement your action hero package with stunt driving or wilderness survival.

Technical: Rigging dispels stuff, medicine and research are pretty useful to everyone, and then with mid you can get electronics or operations or something. You shouldn't need high priority unless you're into arts and crafts.

Social: Mid gives you 5 in Empathy, plus 3 ways to manipulate people which should be all you need unless you also love animals.

So, the *real* things you should be asking yourself are:

Do I love animals or paperwork? If so, prioritize social
Do I love the outdoors or stunt driving? if so, prioritize physical?
Do I have weird disciplines that cast with Artisan or Operations or some shit? If so, prioritize Technical.

That process is SO WEIRD that I find it easier to let people figure out for themselves that their socialite character actually only needs low Social by building the points up in stages.

Orion wrote:..."high priority" ends up, in my experience, going to the group where you have obscure sorceries, not the group most thematically connected to your character.

I just find that bizarre. Aren't the skills a character has part of her "theme"? Or are people in your games going 'She doesn't know how to drive, but she has a Drive skill of 6 to power X and Y sorceries'?

Although that does raise an interesting question: Do you tell players to assign disciplines first and then skill, or vice-versa? Or do you have them do it in a more amorphous fashion?

Definitely disciplines first. And it's usually *soceries* that require weird stuff like bureaucracy or operations or larceny, and I have no problem with the idea that the character learned that skill as part of his sorcerous training.

As you can see in the edit to my previous post, almost all themes can be done on 20 points or less.

Orion wrote:Definitely disciplines first. And it's usually *soceries* that require weird stuff like bureaucracy or operations or larceny, and I have no problem with the idea that the character learned that skill as part of his sorcerous training.

As you can see in the edit to my previous post, almost all themes can be done on 20 points or less.

Oh, that makes sense. That's basically how I've built character using this system as well.

I'm not sure how I feel about new Aura Perception. Sure, it solves a LOT of headaches but it also becomes a really unexciting discipline. I find it really hard to imagine selecting it in preference to Enchanted Slumber, Summon Spirit, or Learn the Heart's Pain.

Orion wrote:How many dots did they get to assign in the first place, though? In the Vampire video game, the total number of dots per category was like 5 or so. I *think* most people would rather assign 5, then 5, then 5, then 15 at once. Also, my perception of white wolf games was that you were so skill-starved that you would know how to prioritize just based on the one or two skills you needed.

In nWoD, people got 11/7/4 to distribute amongst their skill categories. And then, because that makes for a fucking anemic character, almost all games let you start as an "Expert" which then lets you buy more dots with 75 experience points (at a fucking weird exchange rate, depending upon what you buy).

In oWoD, you had 15 "Freebie Points" to spend, after you bought your skills. Which were called "Abilities" and were 13/9/5.

The big thing I'm looking at is that WoD characters are normally quite skill starved. And in any case, an oWoD character could only buy skills up to 4 before spending Freebie points. That is, not only are those the "Origin Story" starting numbers, but the numbers are further depressed by being on a 1-4 scale with players allowed to "push" to 5 instead of being on a 1-6 scale with players allowed to "push" to 7. If you used the Elysium rules for advanced starting characters, they did indeed have more than 20 dots to assign to skill categories (how much more varied, because it was brokn as hell and one of the things you could buy with your background points was "more points" - that's not even a joke).

-Username17

Sounds like oWoD characters do indeed apply skill points in about 3 layers.

EDIT: how do you feel about adding a "typical membership" entry to the cult write-ups above "work" and "resources".

You know,

Giovanni: Khaibit, Ventrue, Wraith
Oracles: Reborn, Fallen, Nezumi
Storm Lords: Deep One, Child of Ether, Frankenstein

just to throw down some quick character concept seeds/ideas for the spokesman who shows up when you offend so and so. I'll make up a sample list in a little bit if the idea is popular.

Orion wrote:Sounds like oWoD characters do indeed apply skill points in about 3 layers.

It was... more baroque than that.

How you got your skills varied depending on what splat you were using - even if you were a mortal and not actually a member of any of the splats. Yes, really. A normal mortal human character was different if they were a normal mortal human in a Werewolf game vs. a Mage game vs. a Vampire game. Once you determined your ruleset, you determined your power level. This adjusted one or more of three different sliders: how many points you distributed with each priority of your three skill categories, how many "Freebie Points" you got to spend on things that might or might not be skill points, and how many "Experience Points" you got to spend on things at a noticeably different rate from the Freebie Points (most notably that XP costs were triangular, while FP costs were linear, and you usually got both at chargen).

nWoD eliminated Freebie Points and reduced character starting skill points, and thus made characters way weaker and less interesting. But the natural result has been that players simply start with more XP and characters are way more min/maxed than oWoD characters ever were.

EDIT: how do you feel about adding a "typical membership" entry to the cult write-ups above "work" and "resources".

You know,

Giovanni: Khaibit, Ventrue, Wraith
Oracles: Reborn, Fallen, Nezumi
Storm Lords: Deep One, Child of Ether, Frankenstein

just to throw down some quick character concept seeds/ideas for the spokesman who shows up when you offend so and so. I'll make up a sample list in a little bit if the idea is popular.

I could see that. Or do a sample NPC for each one or something.

-Username17

EDIT: Also, as stated on the buglist, I don't like Awe. Rolling dice to generate bonus dice for other die rolls is silly and confusing especially when Presence already gives passive bonuses and the tests in question are mostly not that hard. I would prefer it has some actual ability text (I'll try to write some) but if it must be number-based I recommend:

Awe: instead of rolling any socialization test, you may take a number of hits equal to your dicepool/3. When doing so you are incredibly memorable.

The Black Spiral Dancers are not playable as written. Their write-up gives no cultural context (where did they start up, where are they strong now, what *kind* of anarchist philosophies do they read?). There's also no mention of a particular supernatural type anywhere. This in turn leaves us little in the way of guidance as to exactly what kind of operations they pull. Furthermore, the thematic tie to Symphony of Silence is extremely weak, as the SoS spells seem more to a "stillness and perfection" kind of end than the anarchy you can unleash with Descent (or Lure, Swarm, Flame...).

It really just is: "you could write up an anarchist group if you want."

Finally, while they *would* clearly play differently from either of the following groups as antagonists due to being way less selfish or comprehensible, I must point out that in addition to the Black Spirals, the Church of Set and the Hashashin have the stated goals of tearing down the social contract. The Circle of the Crone arguably as well. Frankly, I'm tempted to suggest axing them in favor of a Platonist group which believes in hierarchical authority and the need for orderly perfection. I know you already have Aristotelians in the Circle, but they're anti-modern. Symphony, being connect with "ends" could give rise to a technocratic cult that also buys the whole arete-ocracy model.

Can someone explain to me how Call the Lamprey and Theft of Vitae are different? As far as I can tell, both do 1 box of lethal damage per hit at range with Complex action and the only real differences are where the numbers come from and the fact that Call the Lamprey gives you strictly less power. They aren't actually thematically distinct, so why bother having both?

Grek wrote:Can someone explain to me how Call the Lamprey and Theft of Vitae are different? As far as I can tell, both do 1 box of lethal damage per hit at range with Complex action and the only real differences are where the numbers come from and the fact that Call the Lamprey gives you strictly less power. They aren't actually thematically distinct, so why bother having both?

Using Call of the Lamprey gives power points to anyone. Using Theft of Vitae gives power points only to feeding schedule characters. Thematically, one is literally draining your life away (which feeders can feed on but other's can't 'cause that's not how they get power), and the other is draining your power away (which can be used by anyone).

It would make more sense for CotL to directly steal power points rather than deal damage (like a drug with secondary damage--up to and including death from overdose), but that comes with a whole host of problems.

The way I was reading Theft of Vitae, non-Feeding schedule people still get power points if they use it on people with power points to lose.

Grek wrote:Can someone explain to me how Call the Lamprey and Theft of Vitae are different? As far as I can tell, both do 1 box of lethal damage per hit at range with Complex action and the only real differences are where the numbers come from and the fact that Call the Lamprey gives you strictly less power. They aren't actually thematically distinct, so why bother having both?

Theft of Vitae is more damaging at more than one net hit, but is resisted by Strength - which is a pretty big deal when you're up against, say, a pissed off Bagheera with Giant Size. Call the Lamprey is resisted by Willpower, does damage by the box, and as Catharz+virgil said gives you power even if the target doesn't.

You'd want to use Call the Lamprey against hulked up things and to get power out of mortals; you'd want Theft of Vitae against [EDIT]not-crazyhigh[/EDIT]-Strength people.

The attributes involved (and one of the skill options) are different as well.